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Being able to truly believe that God predestined us for salvation, but never for damnation. whose beliefs have little to do with either Calvin or Arminius. Push back is not the same thing as not wanting people to be honest. Almost every theological viewpoint, and every Christian denomination, has a corresponding Systematic Theology book that reflects their positions on different topics of Scripture. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. We need robust physiotherapy (which invariably hurts, but in a good way not least because at least in part you do it yourself rather than just being done to). My dad was Russian Orthodox, primarily because it was a cultural expectation for him. The ranks of well-known Arminians include historical and current day Roman Catholics, the Remonstrants of the 17th century and John and Charles Wesley. I chose to believe in the sovereignty of God and the goodness of God, even though I dont understand how those two things can co-exist. 1) That article. There is much we have in common, but I honestly have to say that I have encountered more of a critical attitude toward other denominations while I was in the neo-Calvinist camp. The response to an authoritarian and oppressive environment is not to create another one where Calvinism is not tolerated. System- & neat-little-box-free. I have come to understand that my experience in some great non-Calvinist churches is not the norm. Calvin as a Ferengi LOL!!! We are not monolithic. Ive not asked anyone to agree with me. Lin wrote: It is how Calvinism discusses those underlying ideas that causes existential damage and thus, pain. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. 3680 / C (Canadian Dollars) Wilfred Laurier University (Waterloo Lutheran Seminary) Lutheran. That is why I do not now, nor will I ever, follow a man. @dee, What content does your faith have? We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. It wasnt until they tried to recruit me to take an $85.00 course to learn to speak in tongues that I actually started studying my Bible. Please feel free to cut and paste comments to which you are responding over at that other post. And, for that matter, why is his style so difficult? I think of it as humility and respecting my limitations, but I understand the line between humility and doublethink is quite thin. At the end of the class, he was VERY sure where he stood- a non-Calvinist. and can find no basis for a distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. There is a new evangelism taking place. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. The writers did claim to believe much the same, though, even that church and state should work together with the church ruling and the state enforcing church rule. If all that they know are talking points, then it is hard to back them up. Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Feb 9, 2018. I know there are some whose solution is that God limits Himself so that He is not all-knowing; I dont see this in Scripture. Hunt, Finney, Hyles, and Billy Graham would number in the non (anti)-calvinists that I personally have less respect for. etc. So MY goals when I talk about Calvinism here on the forum are to a) clear up misconceptions that would cause people to unnecessarily reject the theology so that they can know for real what it is they are rejecting. Otherwise, you get dismissed as a hayseed rube who is barely literate and not qualified to question Calvinism. Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. When you say that people are misrepresenting the Reformed view, or Calvin, or Tulip, you seem to not understand that many of the people commenting have been taught that total depravity is Truth (along with other teachings that have done much harm) and if they believe otherwise, they may not even be believers. "Pastor John C. Hagee is the founder and Senior Pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 20,000 active members." (sacornerstone.org) His style is serious and intellectual. Im sure God knew about it going in, and I know He/She wept even though at the time I felt abandoned by all the universe. It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? I agree with that perspective as well. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! That has been my experience in dealing with Calvinists online, or lurking at their forums or blogs, yes. Jeff S, you said this: If you think I should be silent whenever I see Calvinism misrepresnted, then that isnt right.. This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. And as you say, Nick, as soon as we have settled out of shock, we need robust physiotherapy which is psychotherapy or intensive spiritual counseling, and thats hard long work; not a job for babies. The idea that we are mindless automatons going through Gods motions is not what Calvinists, now or historically, have ever believed. They are 1) the extent of man's depravity, 2) whether election is conditional, 3) the extent of Christ's atonement, 4) the nature of God's grace and 5) whether Christians will/must persevere in the faith. Would you want to answer that one? Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans all have doctrines which are neither, and Anglicans typically hold doctrines similar to one of those three, rejecting the reformed framework which is central to both Arminianism and Calvinism. But something has changed in the last number of years. Due to the successful ministries of dynamic authors, preachers and speakers such as Louie Giglio, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Kevin DeYoung and Josh Harris, Calvinist/Reformed theology is ranked, according to Time magazine, 3rd on the list of Top 10 Ideas that are Changing the World Right Now . My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Those of us who were vocally opposed to the leadership during the days of the Brent Detwiler Wiki Wars were quietly asked to leave, and they held open the door for me and my family with dulcet platitudes and smiling faces. 5:11-14 (cf. As for my content, I think the Nicene Creed covers a lot of it. Plus I had never heard of tongues). All the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, major liturgical Protestant groups like Lutheran and Anglican, and the Arminian/Methodist/Holiness line, which would include many Charismatics, Non-denominational, etc. The title suggests hes going to argue that something I dont agree with and Cavlinists historically do not believe is false. Were doing well so We must be Righteous is Prosperity Gospel crap. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. I told her that I disagree with John Piper's take on this situation. Actually, Luther wrote more about election and predestination than did Calvin. @ Jeff S: No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. Dee, thank you for sharing that testimony, and article. But maybe there is just too much pain and hurt for that to be possible. I realize that, even with these qualifications, there are those who find such a God abhorrent, and that there are some who will be upset by the notion of such a God, probably because of some terrible thing they went through. NEVER allow them an unchallenged presumption. These include Park Street Church in Boston with Paul Toms as pastor; Chapel Hill Bible Church in North Carolina with Jim Abrahamson as pastor and Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas with Pete Briscoe as pastor. If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? Jesus said to believe in him as a child. He wept at sin and cruelty and brutality.He died for sin, he doesnt stage it.Why would He plan the same terrible things that He died for? How wonderful to remember those days! I never minded using it in the past because it was just a shorthand for my views on what it means to be saved by grace; I wasnt really arguing with anyone, and I figured as shorthand, it was alright. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. I just want an equal seat at the table. Confused? However, they are limited, just as we are. Olson coined the label "Pannenberg's Principle" forWolfhart Pannenberg's argument (1969) that God's deity is his rule "The divinity of God and the reign of God in the world are inseparable."[6]. In my mind its all about power. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. This is not the way toward peace. We can connect on our shared faith and heart for the abused. I do not know. I became involved in the Way my freshman year in college here in N.C. (Greensboro). In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. I am not trying to hurt or be cruelI am trying to say that ideas must have basis, and one does not get to declare an idea and then refuse to defend it rationally by appealing to humanitys inherent inability to understand it, and THEN proceed to give examples of why what is a contradiction in the doctrine really isnt a contradiction. This is a big issue for me, because theres a difference in believing in PSA and believing it is central to the Gospel or that believing a different atonement theology is a different Gospel. I dont think my faith would have survived such a horrible doctrine. So, when some folksfinally get into a Calvinist church that teaches sound doctrine, they believe that they have found a system that has answers for many questions that had troubled them. Maybe Im wrong on that. I really think that we have to go to Scripture with the intent of honestly, to the best of our ability, seeing what it says and submitting to its truth, instead of wanting it to confirm our beliefs. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. Ask a lot of questions. That should be enough to cause himto squirm. I think so, but Im not quite sure what youre asking. In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. Calvinism Jesse Morrell. Calvinism may be cool right now, but it doesnt reflect the God I have known and loved for over 40 years. If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? Who did he think he was? That is what total and depravity mean these days, after all. I know theories of the atonement impact stuff, but I just cant get into that whole debate for some reason. When you get called a heretic,"barely a Christian" or whatever, think of it this way. I never met Calvin myself, and as my History of Science supervisor at uni said nobody has ever devised a means to psychoanalyse the dead, so I can only guess at what went on in Calvins head. Before you do, let me ask: would you take the same tone with another man, and do you believe your words honor God? It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around. For example, we should never, ever turn our backs on child sex abuse because the pastor in the church where it happened is one of our good buddies. People can make Reformed theology or Calvinism whatever they want, but the WCF is a clear historical document that does a good job of giving a baseline for discussion. This never seemed hard to understand to me. As far as truth is concerned, I believe that it reflects what the Bible says is the result of Adams sin. One more point- there have been those on this board who have argued before (in fact, I think Dee was one) that there is a difference between God causing something and God allowing something. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. Some of the resources that have helped me to be a non calvinist are. (though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). But something has changed in the last number of years. Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. Even if they are wrong, there are probably some good issues that are worth being explored. @ Jeff S: I understand, and realize that you *do* wrestle with this as do we all, to a greater or lesser degree. But, nothey will say, you dont have to agree with me! I know theories of the atonement impact stuff, but I just cant get into that whole debate for some reason. I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. The theology is weak. These tenets include, An emphasis on three foundational covenants: redemption, works, and grace An emphasis on the continuity between the Old and New Testament It was populated by extremely insecure . I understand its maddening to shoot at a moving target. I have been given books and literature from Per the God as author of evil thing, Ive only ever heard of one Calvinist who came close to saying this and it was Sproul Jr. Lewis, Alan Walker, Gregory Boyd, Denny Weaver, J. Burkholder, John Roth, Mark Thiessen, George McDonald, G.K. Chesterton, #5 JonC, Feb 9, 2018 Like x 1 JonC Moderator Moderator Joined: Aug 28, 2001 Messages: 29,185 The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. @ JeffB: Does that make my stance clearer? Im not saying thats being done intentionally- that is why Im seeking to clarify what I (and others with similar beliefs) believe. This can apply to spiritual things, to living life with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. There are some big ones where I do not agree (for example, he is quite patriarchal, even though he doesnt make as big a deal about it as some of the more outspoken complementarians). In other words, the Calvinists want you to agree that YOU have a FINITE mind and could be wrong. This is such a profound conversation and so close to my heart! I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. We can just debate doctrine. So in other contexts your Calvinism/steak analogy is right as far as I know. But are *we* the measure of truth? We are actively involved in making choices and exercising real power. Concerning double predestination: If by it you mean that God makes people sin so that he can judge them and send them to hell no, I dont think the Bible says that. about how wrong they are about what they have been taught (and therefore believe) about Calvinism/Reform/Tulip. He or she who has the bigger gun or knife or bombhe or she who has the juggernaut of platform or Church Leadership seniorityis the one who gets to compel others to their point of view. That means you should be able to find other believers who view the faith as you do. But when I look at others, I take a view that is closer to Arminian: that they have a responsibility to respond to the Gospel that is before them. They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. Im aware of his molecule statement. Granted, some assume Total Depravity to mean human beings to be totally depraved. He is also an ordained Baptist minister. It is counterproductive. The promises are over the top. If you define Calvinism that way, then I am certainly not a Calvinist, but neither is my church, the PCA, nor even was Calvin himself. Anyway, its an article called Are There Two Wills In God?, 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. Even just lurking at blogs or forums and watching people debate the topic, Id see this come up a lot, where most Calvinists would claim that the one criticizing, or questioning, Calvinism doesnt understand Calvinism. A very messy prospect, to say the least, and it hadnt worked in centuries past. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. . In between cleaning out my car and doing other various jobs around the house, it came to me. Reformed Theology, Rooted in the Bible. Might we call what youre describing love? That they are the sole divine recipients of truth, again. I read CS Lewis, Francis Schaeffer and many others. Unless I either stop believing what I think is true or shut up about it, it seems I will forever put in a box of this nonsense, unloving idea that God is the author of evil and we are mindless automatons. Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. What I DO think is clear is that God can use evil for good and he works all things for good of those with faith in him. This, of course, is totally irrelevant. Reformed(TM): Christ is thrown under the bus and there is only CALVIN! [1] [2] Pg 81 So this is a goal for myself, as my family is growing up and I am finding a bit more time. Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. Dee blast from the past! Arminianism answers some of questions for me, not all of them. their humanity is often put on a shelf in defense of a system of belief. Both my husband and I knew the difference at this point and began to look for another church in Dallas which we found in Bent Tree Bible Church. 2. It is counterproductive., I dont understand, then, why, on your blog, you allowed a Calvinism Free For All. I didnt notice any Calvinists telling people that God wanted you to be raped, or something like that. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need. My frustration when Ive discussed Calvinism online has been that its others who want to push me into make it all fit boxes. Anyways, just to say, Calvinism is a much larger group than the current T4G/TGC and followers. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God, and our salvation and love for others is a part of that. Can they wrestle with it on their own? I was challenged to think, to serve, to teach and to grow. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. And its a big enough issue that RC Sproul re-badges it to Radical Corruption. I think the biblical examples might sometimes be God working with someones sin; for example, the hardening of Pharaohs heart, and that might still be happening today in some cases, and not always involving sin, such as God giving us the words as we witness to someone.) (Cue Calvinists crowing in predestined triumph) If the Institutes were a lifes work, Id expect a little length. Our sinful human nature craves it. And toss in a side dish of I cant be wrong. Even though I rejected Calvinism, I was not (nor have I ever been) a universalist, I still believed in Gods sovereignty, etc. I was taught for years that my salvation was only a happy side effect of Gods bringing glory to Himself- and after years of trying to rationalize how horrible things that happen are scripted for us by God- and after years of listening to systematic theology that seeks to cram all the unexplainable nature and mystery of God into a neat, cut and dried smugness with a pat answer to everything- I am like a kid in a candy store. And the reason I identify that way is not because I want to convert people, but because I just didnt like all the hatred spewed out at the belief system. What you describe is nothing like what I believe nor anyone I know believes. In fact, I recently wrote a song about it- some of the lyrics (this song could be titled ode to John Piper and his views on Divorce and Remarriage, but I did not quite go that far): So many people with big ideas who have it all figured out I let the philosophers consider those questions. ++++++++++++++++. Jesus statement that my food is to do the will of him who sent me applies in our context. Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, "I believe" andcrossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. Takes great delight in you living your life, the ups and the downs. And so, I also agree with Nick on this: To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you.. And unless I misunderstand Jesus diatribes against the teachers of the law, theres no filthier or more deceitful idolatry. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. He said he found comfort from it. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. The only real knowledge is surrendering your mind to their interpretive assumptions on anything. I grew up with a no talk policy and then experienced the same restrictions in church later on when I experienced abuse. Demeaning can also occur by passive-aggression, which is the preferred method of the more academic among us. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. * Okay, end of sermon. And yes, I said so on Dennys blog. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. View all posts by Joshua Wu Kai-Ming. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point.. I may be wrong, but I think Enns is a Calvinist. There were many songs that resonated with me, especially I Dont Know How to Love Him. for me that meant there was much i had to learn about loving Jesus. They do not understand that there are alternative answers by good non-Calvinist theologians as well. They cant seem to express their experience and pain without having a conversation with some authentic Calvinist/Reformer/Tulip believer (Whatever that means. But it is not- God has power over every molecule and can prevent it from messing up his redemptive plan. German-American theologian and philosopher Paul Tillich is remembered for his work in the field of Christian existentialism and for concepts such as the method of correlation. He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. Right after I became a Christian, I purchased Jesus Christ Superstar! Paul Ellingworth William G. MacDonald James Strauss Philip Towner John Wenham Gary Habermas Nigel Turner Max Turner Peter Cotterell (?) And no, I did not. Its like asking the old question: Can God create a rock to heavy for Him to throw? His interpretation of Christianity, advanced above all in his Institutio Christianae . Accept that they believe in a God of love even if you do not know how they get there. Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. I dont think God wanted this to happen- any more than he plans for children to be abused or any other of the litany of horrors that go on in this world. Barrett 29. These leaders are not MY leader, and they are not the leaders of the men and women at my church. It buys you nothing in light of Gods absolute control. Oy. @ Muff Potter: I know this all too well, Im afraid, but it goes for *anything* even art, music, theater, etc. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. As for it being our purpose in life, its about as inspiring as a plate of lima beans for breakfast. Hmm Apostles and Nicene, indeedy-do. (I mean, Star Trek?). Rather, it is a doctrine that expresses classical Jewish orthodoxy, Muslim orthodoxy, and Christian orthodoxy with respect to the nature of God. If we cant really know the fundamentals, then, who are we to disagree with Calvinists on the secondaries? If it does, then Im find with that. I have a couple key thoughts (key to me anyway) which have taken form as I have extricated myself from reformed theology over the past year: 1. In fact, Ive probably used that word less in the previous 14 years than I have this last year interacting online. The farther away from direct, clear scripture I get, the more loosely I hold to ideas. That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. Im a musician in a band the skill level I have now is directly proportional to how many times Ive absolutely made a total fool of myself in front of people. I really did exercise power when I tossed that piece of chalk; God did not throw it for me. I dont have an answer, but I dont like the other alternatives either (that God doesnt exist, is not all powerful, or is evil). And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. Admittedly, Im not famous enough to have followers trying to define Bulbeckism. Now I dont see either of those reflected in what I know of historic Calvinism (and both are directly addressed in the WCF), but if some people want to say they believe those things, then those people are in error for believing them because they are unbiblical, not because they are unCalvinistic. Mohler says the seminarys current prosperity is a sign of Gods blessing on an institution that rejected liberal trends in society and returned to more conservative social ideas. It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. John Calvin, Paul Helm John Calvin W. Robert Godfrey Crossway is a not-for-profit Christian ministry that exists solely for the purpose of proclaiming the gospel through publishing gospel-centered, Bible-centered content. One reason is because I have gone through periods where I questioned Gods goodness because of certain events in my life and in those of others. With the Internet, you never know. by allowing them). In what way it is wrong needs to be determined. I am thinking Ferengi with all of their Rules of Acquisition.. I accept with humility that there are things that I cannot understand. There are anti-Calvinists with websites who have examples, quotes taken from books by pro-Calvinists where the pro-C equates Cal to the Gospel itself, their point being to hint that anyone not embracing Cal is not a Christian, then you have the Cals who come right out and say it. However, there are a lot of us (from Liturgical Protestant churches, as well as the RCC, Orthodox churches, the German/Dutch anabaptist churches etc.) The promises are over the top. Many of us had grown up in non-Christian households and did not know many Christians. What about what God foreordained someone else to say that is different. And I get better at flying (so to speak). Hes already won me to his side. The bullying was behind the scenes. And requires even more general kindness and that continued diet in that warm kitchen. Apollos! discussions. ), Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp..